The commissions was garbage from the get go. I'm not sure what we would learn here other than what we expected. A positive from the article though ...
They also had to admit in court they didn't find anything lol
White House and Texas officials said the Texas voter data was never delivered because a lawsuit brought by Texas voting rights advocates after the request last year temporarily stopped any data handoff.
They also had to admit in court they didn't find anything lol
By KingGondo Go To PostCircumstances conspired to create maximum leverage for Dems and they pissed it away for a promise from Mitch McConnell. They have no guts and will cave next time too.Maximum leverage?
My guy, what leverage did they have?
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostMaximum leverage?i'm not with gondo 100% on this one, but this wishy washy bullshit is maddening from the left as a whole
My guy, what leverage did they have?
they need to make a plan and actually stick to it
By DY_nasty Go To Posti'm not with gondo 100% on this one, but this wishy washy bullshit is maddening from the left as a whole
they need to make a plan and actually stick to it
The deal they're getting today is certainly better than the deal that would be offered in three weeks. You can't expect to enter a negotiation for a comprehensive DACA fix when the GOP can't even align on what DACA fix means. At least now you get CHIP funded and see what happens next.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostThe deal they're getting today is certainly better than the deal that would be offered in three weeks. You can't expect to enter a negotiation for a comprehensive DACA fix when the GOP can't even align on what DACA fix means. At least now you get CHIP funded and see what happens next.it either never should've never came to a shutdown in the first place or they should've hardlined for more
this is why people don't like voting for dems. pick something and stick to it ffs lol. dont just waffle around, become an annoyance, then act like you saved the world
By reilo Go To PostAmerican Men: the mistake that just won't dieReminds me of the "American Males" WCW theme song. CLASSIC WCW intro... in that it was terrible.
By DY_nasty Go To Postit either never should've never came to a shutdown in the first place or they should've hardlined for more
this is why people don't like voting for dems. pick something and stick to it ffs lol. dont just waffle around, become an annoyance, then act like you saved the world
I knew this was going to be your position after that semi trollish comments on Friday. lmao
By Fenderputty Go To PostI knew this was going to be your position after that semi trollish comments on Friday. lmaookay
edit: actually just remembered that convo about schumber doing a fantastic job or something along those lines just a few months back lol. yeah this fits those guidelines i guess
"great success" winging it so far
By DY_nasty Go To Postokay
"The dems shouldn't play obstructionist unless they've been all aboard since day 1"
three days later Dems get CHIP funded for a short term spending bill. DACA still up in the air
"The dems should have hard-lined for more"
By DY_nasty Go To Postit either never should've never came to a shutdown in the first place or they should've hardlined for moreThey were NEVER going to get more. A hardline stance was gonna be nothing more than a dog and pony show.
this is why people don't like voting for dems. pick something and stick to it ffs lol. dont just waffle around, become an annoyance, then act like you saved the world
But if they went for the first option the screaming would've been way louder than this with zero added upside. If you thought this was bad, imagine if they caved a week ago.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostIf you thought this was bad, imagine if they caved a week ago.
You know I'm not ready to say that another 3-5 days wouldn't have got them more. Highly dependent on the media cycle though ...
By Fenderputty Go To Post"The dems shouldn't play obstructionist unless they've been all aboard since day 1"they should pick one, even if i disagree - they need to commit to something. is that so hard to work with?
three days later Dems get CHIP funded for a short term spending bill. DACA still up in the air
"The dems should have hard-lined for more"
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostThey were NEVER going to get more. A hardline stance was gonna be nothing more than a dog and pony show.the hardline stance was push the shutdown for more than a weekend lol.
But if they went for the first option the screaming would've been way louder than this with zero added upside. If you thought this was bad, imagine if they caved a week ago.
if you're willing to normalize a government shutdown, then apply appropriate stakes to it. that's what's ridiculous.
As much as it's crass to say, the only way to realistically "win" on this issue is to force the Republicans to admit that they want these DACA recipients deported. Full stop.
The shutdown will obfuscate the issue. A DREAM act vote, even if (actually, especially if) it doesn't make it to the floor, will speak louder than anything the Dems can engineer.
The shutdown will obfuscate the issue. A DREAM act vote, even if (actually, especially if) it doesn't make it to the floor, will speak louder than anything the Dems can engineer.
By DY_nasty Go To Postthey should pick one, even if i disagree - they need to commit to something. is that so hard to work with?
the hardline stance was push the shutdown for more than a weekend lol.
if you're willing to normalize a government shutdown, then apply appropriate stakes to it. that's what's ridiculous.
They did commit. For three days lol. I wish they would have held out for a couple more too, but let’s see what happens in a couple weeks before this is completely poo poo’ed.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostAs much as it's crass to say, the only way to realistically "win" on this issue is to force the Republicans to admit that they want these DACA recipients deported. Full stop.I think a full shutdown over just DACA is bullshit - especially with how everything led up to this point. That's what I mean by normalizing. If you're willing to pin something so big on the right, then go all the way with it. Let the world burn (even if you kinda started this whole deportation ramp up yourself lolz but we already been over that) but if the goal was to sit back and wait til 2018, then commit to it or don't. Say you gotta keep the government working and sacrifice a few seats you know you're easily going to retain.
The shutdown will obfuscate the issue. A DREAM act vote, even if (actually, especially if) it doesn't make it to the floor, will speak louder than anything the Dems can engineer.
If you're not though? ....if you're gonna play that game with a full on shutdown, go hard or go home pls. Now we're going to have shutdowns over stupid stuff like fracking and public transportation.
'shutdown leverage'
fucking hell.... this is not a win lol
who needs a filibuster when you can sandbag and wait your turn to hold the country hostage over whatever is hot in the streets
fucking hell.... this is not a win lol
who needs a filibuster when you can sandbag and wait your turn to hold the country hostage over whatever is hot in the streets
By DY_nasty Go To PostI think a full shutdown over just DACA is bullshit - especially with how everything led up to this point. That's what I mean by normalizing. If you're willing to pin something so big on the right, then go all the way with it. Let the world burn (even if you kinda started this whole deportation ramp up yourself lolz but we already been over that) but if the goal was to sit back and wait til 2018, then commit to it or don't. Say you gotta keep the government working and sacrifice a few seats you know you're easily going to retain.
If you're not though? ….if you're gonna play that game with a full on shutdown, go hard or go home pls. Now we're going to have shutdowns over stupid stuff like fracking and public transportation.
This isn’t really a poor description of what lead to the need for a DACA savior. Especially with the comparisons to fracking and public transportation.
We also disagree with the importance of DACA but that’s expected
By DY_nasty Go To PostI think a full shutdown over just DACA is bullshit - especially with how everything led up to this point.Which means your position is diametrically opposed to large swaths of the democratic base. They can't win
How is CHIP being funded for 6 years a "loss"? That's what I am confused about. Is the assumption here that DACA is lost?
I don't agree with Dy over a lot of his political views, but this? This shit is really annoying af. They lasted until Monday, and through a weekend in which the ones that needed to focus on this were paying attention to all of the other shit that was happening. Wasn't even enough time for anyone to get mad over.
The last shutdown was over pure bullshit, and this was actually for a good cause. Only three days is crazy to me.
The last shutdown was over pure bullshit, and this was actually for a good cause. Only three days is crazy to me.
Dems just stay not standing for shit. Sorry if you can't accept this reality. They will always toss people under the bus to play nice with the GOP.
By DY_nasty Go To Post'shutdown leverage'
fucking hell…. this is not a win lol
who needs a filibuster when you can sandbag and wait your turn to hold the country hostage over whatever is hot in the streets
This isn’t fair for a lot of reasons:
A. Obstruction during Obama’s years
B. Actual governance would see the GOP not play games at spending bill time. No DACA or CHiP hostage taking.
C. Actual governance would see the GOP compromise enough with moderate dems that they pull votes.
By reilo Go To PostHow is CHIP being funded for 6 years a "loss"? That's what I am confused about. Is the assumption here that DACA is lost?health insurance for 9 million kids is only good if it gets you a "win" in a NYT headline brosef.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostDems just stay not standing for shit. Sorry if you can't accept this reality. They will always toss people under the bus to play nice with the GOP.
9 million children just got rolled over by a buss apparently lol
Man ... I wanted Dems to hold for a little more, and you purists up here making me rethink
By Fenderputty Go To Post9 million children just got rolled over by a buss apparently loland how many people were affected by half assing the ACA on compromise? lets not lol
Man … I wanted Dems to hold for a little more, and you purists up here making me rethink
By reilo Go To PostLet's play a hypothetical here: if DACA stays 3 weeks from now, is this still a loss or nah?the issue with ALL of this is that we're framing an entire government shutdown - which is consistently minimized as "guys just won't get paid for a while, and there's backpay too :D" - around singular issues. I support DACA being saved, even if I consistently reiterate the fact that railroading immigrants up outta here isn't something that started the same time as the wall rhetoric.
This is a massive deal. This isn't just a did-we-get-what-we-want-from-the-last-few-months yes or no type of question at all.
for all fender's talk of obstructionism, this is essentially rewriting the book. which would even be okay in my opinion if they recognized what they actually did with all of this
shutting down the government for things that in reality should be going towards the supreme court, is some terrifying shit while people are going back and forth over the value of the deal.
next time we start a decade long war i'd love to see something like a shutdown get used. but its used on.... this? something they helped start? lol foh
Last time it was used to strip the ACA, so I don't see the line being that different. Plus it's not *just* DACA, it's DACA and CHIP. I actually care that we managed to fund 9mil kids's health insurance over the next 6 years.
By DY_nasty Go To Postand how many people were affected by half assing the ACA on compromise? lets not lolMaybe I am misunderstanding the point here, but are you saying *not enough* (agreed) or *too little* (disagree)?
In 2016, there were 28.6 million Americans without health insurance, down from more than 48 million in 2010. Some 12.4 percent of adults aged 18 to 24 were uninsured, 69.2 percent were covered by private plans and 20 percent had public coverage.
No Ws. All Ls. Bunch of this shit should be bare minimum staying and improved on. This country is fucked.
By DY_nasty Go To Postand how many people were affected by half assing the ACA on compromise? lets not lol
the issue with ALL of this is that we're framing an entire government shutdown - which is consistently minimized as "guys just won't get paid for a while, and there's backpay too :D" - around singular issues. I support DACA being saved, even if I consistently reiterate the fact that railroading immigrants up outta here isn't something that started the same time as the wall rhetoric.
This is a massive deal. This isn't just a did-we-get-what-we-want-from-the-last-few-months yes or no type of question at all.
for all fender's talk of obstructionism, this is essentially rewriting the book. which would even be okay in my opinion if they recognized what they actually did with all of this
shutting down the government for things that in reality should be going towards the supreme court, is some terrifying shit while people are going back and forth over the value of the deal.
next time we start a decade long war i'd love to see something like a shutdown get used. but its used on…. this? something they helped start? lol foh
So maybe take issue with the people who blew DACA up for no reason and who decided to hold CHIP spending hostage for half a year until the moment of a shutdown. It takes two to tango and you're acting like Dems are leading the dance here when we don't control one fucking branch. The GOP thought they could hold children's health and migration status over Democrats heads to force a shitty wall and massive uptick in border spending. They didn't even try to work across the isle. Fucking McConnell out here blocking democratic bills that would keep certain military spending open in a shutdown but NOOOOOOOO ... it's the Dems venturing into uncharted territory. lol
It's not a massive deal. It's a weekend shutdown that followed with yet another short term spending gap. WEEEE. Dems got CHIP out of it. I'll wait and see what ends up of DACA in three weeks.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostNo Ws. All Ls. Bunch of this shit should be bare minimum staying and improved on. This country is fucked.
You must live in a different reality where Dems control all three branches and a bunch of bigots just didn't vote in a Nazi to the whitehouse. Only thing that makes sens.e
if your leverage is a government shutdown, and one side doesn't actually care if there's a functioning government, you don't actually have leverage.
This isn't rewriting the book. That already happened and there's a precedence for it lol. What the dems did was just a warning shot. I don't support a long term game of chicken using innocent Americans as the vehicles, and I don't think dems will either at the end of the day.
This was their bluff--and they increased the visibility on this matter significantly. They get the DACA deal or they don't--but I don't actually expect another shutdown. Again, it's morally and strategically wonky as fuck.
This was their bluff--and they increased the visibility on this matter significantly. They get the DACA deal or they don't--but I don't actually expect another shutdown. Again, it's morally and strategically wonky as fuck.
There's no leverage period. The GOP will consistently have the current batch of Dems compromising away basic shit and we'll all play along like the Dems have no other choice.
By reilo Go To PostLast time it was used to strip the ACA, so I don't see the line being that different. Plus it's not *just* DACA, it's DACA and CHIP. I actually care that we managed to fund 9mil kids's health insurance over the next 6 years.i'm pretty sure i've maintained that they should've stuck to their guns then too. if you're going to go all out on this stuff, then either go hard and let people believe you'll stand up for them in a change, and not in some short-term fashion that depends on bad memory.
and that also goes towards the issue of normalizing shutdowns as a negotiation strategy.
By Fenderputty Go To PostThis isn’t fair for a lot of reasons:actual governance just completely failed in order to make a cheap point. the government literally shutdown because we want to rewrite the rules of obstruction
A. Obstruction during Obama’s years
B. Actual governance would see the GOP not play games at spending bill time. No DACA or CHiP hostage taking.
C. Actual governance would see the GOP compromise enough with moderate dems that they pull votes.
if you're going to change the rules of the game, at least do it for something worthwhile. something that you're not initially complicit in.
"we want to save kids" and "we want to protect illegal immigrants"
we could've done a much better job of protecting both in the last 8 years instead of compromising to the center
By DY_nasty Go To Posti'm pretty sure i've maintained that they should've stuck to their guns then too. if you're going to go all out on this stuff, then either go hard and let people believe you'll stand up for them in a change, and not in some short-term fashion that depends on bad memory.So it's better to be right and get nothing?
and that also goes towards the issue of normalizing shutdowns as a negotiation strategy.
By DY_nasty Go To Postwe could've done a much better job of protecting both in the last 8 years instead of compromising to the centerHow? None of this stuff is permanent policy.
By DY_nasty Go To Postand how many people were affected by half assing the ACA on compromise? lets not lol
You gotta be trolling with this shit ...
By Random Ass Username Go To PostThere's no leverage period. The GOP will consistently have the current batch of Dems compromising away basic shit and we'll all play along like the Dems have no other choice.They have no leverage but your made they didn't hold out longer? LMFAO u serious?
By Fenderputty Go To PostSo maybe take issue with the people who blew DACA up for no reason and who decided to hold CHIP spending hostage for half a year until the moment of a shutdown. It takes two to tango and you're acting like Dems are leading the dance here when we don't control one fucking branch. The GOP thought they could hold children's health and migration status over Democrats heads to force a shitty wall and massive uptick in border spending. They didn't even try to work across the isle. Fucking McConnell out here blocking democratic bills that would keep certain military spending open in a shutdown but NOOOOOOOO … it's the Dems venturing into uncharted territory. lolA couple of things, I went over it elsewhere but the whole 'military could've been paid if only the GOP would've allowed it" we got fucked completely last time too. The language of those terms does not translate to a CNN talking head round up like many other things that get consistently glossed over. If you got people getting kicked out of training schools on the spot, foreign nationals at that, you're screwing way more than the guys at the post office. And that's just the military - it doesn't include all the offices working other time sensitive issues that require a 24/7/365 gameplan. This is minimizing the effects of to a huge degree. "Its just a weekend shutdown" but do you really want TSA and Border Patrol working for free for even an hour? That's a big deal that once again goes back to people not appreciating all the things that go down to keep shit from hitting fans much more frequently.
It's not a massive deal. It's a weekend shutdown that followed with yet another short term spending gap. WEEEE. Dems got CHIP out of it. I'll wait and see what ends up of DACA in three weeks.
You must live in a different reality where Dems control all three branches and a bunch of bigots just didn't vote in a Nazi to the whitehouse. Only thing that makes sens.e
And yeah, it absolutely takes two to tango on this. But if you're going to do it, either do it for real and get everything you want and more with your moment of leverage or let them be the party that allows things to go to shit repeatedly and not participate. You can't have it both ways. That's normalizing this. It was 5 years since the last one, it'll be two years til the next one, then after that it'll be planned abused for the most trifling shit ever like every other political tool out there.
May as well say that Gerrymandering and voter suppression was just a one time thing lol
By reilo Go To PostSo it's better to be right and get nothing?If something isn't permanent policy, it doesn't mean you short arm it like its just whatever. Those things still have massive effects but most of all they set the bar for what's the standard.
How? None of this stuff is permanent policy.
If you set it low from the start, then degrading it becomes dramatically easier. And that's where we're at now.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostDACA was introduced because DREAM Act failed….DACA is just a very small part of the immigration issue and we've done this before. Protecting 'the good ones' doesn't do nearly enough.
Again, we've run this immigration mill for long, long time so framing this entire thing around just DACA, now of all times, is straight up hypocritical.
??? you're losing me on that one, DY.
What could've been done to protect these policies from not being subject to these budget procedures, where they can be stripped every year? Literally anything under the federal budget can be dropped if enough votes are there, including shit like Social Security.
What could've been done to protect these policies from not being subject to these budget procedures, where they can be stripped every year? Literally anything under the federal budget can be dropped if enough votes are there, including shit like Social Security.
You make it politically not viable to but the democrats are terrible at messaging and strengthening what already exists so it's that much harder to fuck with it.
Strengthening how? In the court of popular opinion? That clearly has zero bearing on what agenda Republicans want to pass.